Interview transcript (edited slightly for clarity):
Tom Byrne, DPM News Director:
Delaware's new Secretary of Education Cindy Martin, thank you so much for joining us on The Green this week. We appreciate you taking some time to chat about the state of education here in the First State.
Cindy Marten, Delaware Education Secretary:
It's great to be with you. Thank you.
Byrne:
Education funding is top of mind for many people – and there’s two major area to cover with that – the state’s funding formula and then how much to spend on education to get the student outcomes everyone would like to see.
I want to start with the formula. Gov. Meyer has made it clear he wants to see a major revamp – criticizing the current unit system as incredibly outdated. The Public Education Funding Commission is expected to review 3 or more models for a new approach. Is there a path you and Gov. Meyer are leaning toward?
Marten:
Well, the commission is hard at work, and was really hard at work before I got here, and I'm bringing 36 years of experience as a teacher and a school principal and a school superintendent in San Diego, and then four years at the US Department of Education into a conversation that's well underway with the governor, who's been real clear that it's time for there to be some major change. So, for me to say “Okay, this is where it should go” would just bifurcate the process that is already in place.
So, what I'm doing is making sure I understand the pressure points, I know the needs, and I understand the importance of a weighted student formula or an equitable student formula, and I know the importance of it from real experience.
When I was in San Diego as superintendent of San Diego Unified School District, I will say a district with 100,000 students while Delaware has 140,000 students, San Diego Unified was part of California's weighted student formula roll out in July of 2013 which had a base grant, a supplemental grant, a concentration grant, which meant every school got the base grant, then they got a supplemental grant for students with greater needs. And then if you had a concentration, a high number of those students identified as greater need, then you got a concentration grant because 90% of your students were low income, or 90% of your students were spoke a different language, multilingual learners, or whatever the different factors were that were identified as needing greater investment. And I implemented it in practice, what it looked like to weight a formula and give greater investment.
So, as I enter into the work with the Commission and leading the governor's vision and charge to make sure that Delaware is not working under an old formula that was developed in 1940, we're not changing it, just to change it. We're changing it based on what we know works. And there's been some research on this. And the AIR (American Institutes for Research) group went out and did talk to people all across Delaware. In fact, our next funding commission meeting, we can talk about what they learned, When HCR2, I believe, reconstituted the Public Education Funding Commission to continue its work, one of the sections in there said that the Funding Commission needs to look at what the AIR researchers did when they spoke to members of the community, teachers, parents, educators, I'm not sure everybody who is part of these professional review board committees, but they went across the state getting input on what would we need for a fully funded, more equitable student formula. I'm not sure if that's exactly the question they asked, but something along those lines, and HCR2 said that the professional the Funding Commission members need to listen to the results of what they learned during that so that's what we'll do in our next meeting.
What people in Delaware actually said is needed in a more equitable, fully funded, potentially weighted formula. If we're going to make a change, it's not just to make a change. To make a change, it's what are the needs of our Delaware students. And I always want to ground any conversation we have about funding formulas in students with educators’ voices. You want to know what works. Ask the people doing the work. You want to know what's needed as the people doing the work, and they know where there are holes, where there are some programs that are good but not fully funded for expansion, and that is what the AIR group did. And so, before we get too far on formula, let's make sure we know what problems we are trying to solve. I'd rather talk about people than formulas. Formulas back up what people need, and so the math needs to pencil out. The formulas need to be modeled. The impacts to different school systems need to be understood, but be clear on who we're making these formulas for and what we're intending to get from them before we move.
Byrne:
Before we get a bit further along in this conversation, I just want to try to clarify one thing. Is it this administration's position at this juncture, based on some of the things you just said, that that the unit count system, or some reworking of it is, is probably not the way to go forward?
Marten:
I’m not getting into a binary here. Being new to the conversation, that is what I've heard. People talk about is that it's time to go in a different direction. But look, the commission is having a conversation about this right now. At the end of the day, the approach is not as important as the outcome. Are we going to have a more equitable formula? The lawsuit that resulted in Opportunity Funding for the State already made it clear that we needed more equitable funding. Can equitable funding, as recommended by the AIR report, be achieved through unit count? Some would say yes. Some would say no. I want to make sure the outcome is that we have a fully funded formula that equitably resources all schools across Delaware so all students have what they need when they need it, in the way that they need it in their own communities where they live.
So, to debate either this one or this one reduces a complex problem into a simplistic it's either going to be this or it's going to be this, and one side or the other is going to win or lose. It's much more complicated than that. It's a complex set of variables, and our charge is to come up with a solution and a formula that moves past the current reality that's been in place since 1940 that we know needs to change. How does that change? What is the exact formula? That is the work of this committee.
Byrne:
You talked a little bit about your experience in San Diego. And you've said elsewhere that what was done there is not something you can cut and paste and bring to Delaware. And based on your conversation with us so far, that is not something you would want to do. But what did you learn from that experience that you feel informs what you're bringing to the table and what what Governor Meyer is bringing to the table?
Marten:
What I learned is that leadership matters, and in California, leadership started with the governor.
Governor Jerry Brown was very clear that California was going to fundamentally, once and for all, change its funding of schools. And when he did that and got it through the legislature in 2013 - it took his leadership to get it through the state legislature - but then it turns into you got it done. You have a new formula that is about equity at its core, the implementation of it is as important as the formula being done. And so, leadership up and down the state, from elected school boards to appointed superintendents, had to understand the mission and the charge behind an equitable, weighted student formula. Schools like San Diego Unified that got greater investment because of the greater need had to then carry out the mission of this formula, in deed and in practice, in every decision that the board made.
So, funding came from the state in a much different way, with different kinds of restrictions that were attached to the funding than before. There was more money, with more choice. With more money and more choice, if local leaders don't understand how to use those dollars to impact the very kids they were intended on impacting, you could end up no better off.
So, leadership matters at the state and at the local level. I happen to be a superintendent that was in charge of implementation, and I understood what I needed to do with San Diego Unified, having almost 200 schools and a formula that was very different. Not all 200 schools were exactly the same, and each school needed something a little different, that was at the local district level. So, local leadership and local school boards (in Delaware) will also need to understand what the implementation of a more equitable formula will look like and make different choices.
Byrne:
Let's talk a little bit about implementation, because Governor Meyer has said he would like to get this done quickly and has suggested having some semblance of recommendations from the committee by July 1. The committee previously has talked more about October of this year. Realistically, based on your experience, how quickly can recommendations be made and then actually implemented?
Marten:
I think there's an on ramp here. What is the right methodology for fundamentally changing something that hasn't been changed in a long time? It is not a light switch that you just turn on. And implementation needs on ramps, and it needs off ramps. There's going to be things that the state will stop doing. There'll be things the states start doing. And so to adopt a formula in theory, then to have a five year rollout plan - I just made up the year five years - I'm not sure what it would take to stop doing certain things and start doing certain things. I'll tell you the way it worked in California is the formula was adopted, but the money didn't start flowing until two years later, when California passed what was called Prop 30. But the concept of the formula, the implementation was there, the formula was adopted, and then implementation was over a five-year period.
Byrne:
So, for example, we could still see things like Opportunity Funding continue for a while, until something new comes to take its place or merge with it in some way, shape or form.
Marten:
I think what you're talking about there is something that's really important. I believe that this needs to be a holistic approach. And instead of another idea to solve the education issues of this state, whether from a funding perspective or student outcome perspective, needs to take a holistic approach.
I’ve been here for about a month now, and I've seen that there have been multiple ways in which the state has worked to address the most pressing issues in education from a funding perspective. Opportunity Funding, the equalization committee, the property tax reassessment, each one of these things were intended to change the outcomes in the trajectory for education in Delaware. Each one worthy in and of itself. You don't just stop doing that because you've got a new formula, nor do you just say here's a new formula layered on top of all of that.
When I said there's on ramps and off ramps, there are some things that get phased out while new things get phased in, so you don't do anything so fast that you upend the system in a way that creates more instability. Some people call it a hold harmless. How do we build some hold harmless is into this so that districts that are used to a certain way of getting funding and staffing their schools have off ramps like this. Things will change, but you'll have phase out periods while you phase things in. Could there be a world where you won't need equalization anymore, because the overall, holistic formula is equitable, you don't need to then equalize because you've actually built it into the formula from the outset? But that's not turn that switch off on June 30 and July 1, turn on the new one. That is not how you make fundamental, systemic form. This needs to be a holistic approach.
I want to work with the team to actually figure out holistically, how do we take all of the efforts that have been done, what were the good parts, bad parts, what worked, what didn't work, and then put those together into a comprehensive view for reconstituting what a long term funding formula could be, what it could look like, and do it in a way that is measured and thoughtful in its rollout.
Byrne:
Let's move on to funding levels. The AIR reports call for $590 million to $1 billion more spending on public education. Governor Meyer has embraced that report's recommendations, including that one. When we talk about that level of additional investment, and I think that's the thing that I think just caught a lot of people's attention, what would that look like? Are there some examples of what the state might spend that additional money on to improve outcomes in Delaware.
Marten:
That’s what the group is going to look at during our March meeting next week, is what were some of the recommendations from the professional review committees that had some ideas about what would be needed to fully fund schools in Delaware.
I think it would be important to break down that report. Typically, when you're talking about greater investment, what is needed? Is it additional learning time? Is it sometimes students that are behind in reading need - this is really technical, because I'm a literacy specialist - but double dosing, you could have your reading two reading groups a day instead of one reading group a day? Or do have you have robust summer learning, or high dosage tutoring? Do you have high quality instructional materials with well trained teachers who know how to implement?
You could be investing in principal professional development, so principals know how to lead their schools.
You're giving teachers the kinds of wraparound services that they need. Many times, the reason why students aren't learning has nothing to do with the actual constructs of the classroom and the teacher's technical skills has to do with additional needs that students come into our classrooms with that are beyond the scope of a teacher's training. So, investments in community schools, where you can have school-based health centers, you can work with housing and development. You can work with work with food insecurity. You can work with the pediatricians to talk about well child checks to make sure students are physically healthy. So, all of the things that make students prepared to learn.
You can invest in better early childhood so there's a sturdy bridge to kindergarten. What's happening in the zero to five space? Are we investing in all four-year-olds getting a high-quality education? Or is it only certain four-year-olds are getting access to a sturdy bridge to kindergarten, so they're coming in better prepared?
I could go for a long time about some of these investments, but the governor has been clear there's a new statewide formula that would somehow include a base formula. He's talked about increasing the per pupil funding from the current $974 per pupil to $3,400, up to $6,400.
Those are just dollars. I want to talk about the work that comes from our educators who know what our students need. How do you increase the funding for students with disabilities, for multilingual learners, and then when you do it, you have increased accountability so you can report out on the return of the investments. We're not just throwing money at the problem and saying, “We hope this works.” There's actually accountability that goes with each of those metrics. And not just NAEP scores. NAEP scores are the big, giant byproduct and lagging indicator. There's other accountability metrics that you put in along the way to show that we are on track to have more kids prepared for kindergarten than anywhere in the country, for example. Let's put an indicator in on that. Let's put an indicator that shows these, these metrics.
Byrne:
On that accountability piece, is that what you say to those - specifically GOP lawmakers - who argue against spending more money, saying, essentially, Delaware already ranks in the top 15 states for per pupil spending, but the grades and the test scores, as you just noted, are in the bottom portion of any rankings. Is that your answer to that argument from those folks, that we just need to spend smarter, not spend more?
Marten:
Well, I don't know if it's my answer to those folks. It's my answer to the way that I show up professionally in my work, that anything that I do in the school system is to ultimately drive impact and outcomes for students. And I hold myself professionally accountable.
When I was a teacher, if I taught it, I needed to make sure you learned it. When I was a principal, what we taught is that teaching is not enough. There's an old joke about a little kid who walks into the room with their dog and they say, “I taught my dog how to whistle.” And the friend is like, “I don't hear him whistling.” And the person says, “I said I taught him. I didn't say he learned it”. Take this into the school setting and say, what are these efforts, what have we spent this money on? And what is the return on that investment?
The return is not always as easily measured. A test score is a big way to measure. That is an important way - The Nation's Report Card - but there are other metrics along the way. Teachers know how to do this all the time. As teachers teach, and they assess whether students learn on a daily, after each lesson, after each unit, after each quarter, at the marking period, and bringing people along. What did we spend the money on, and what did we hope to get? What can we show as a measurable outcome of that?
I don't know if I'm answering a GOP lawmaker as much as I'm answering what professionals do every day when we teach. We want to know they learn. Teachers care about efficacy. Teachers care about student learning. That's why we show up every day at school, is to make sure our students learn, and we should be able to report on that to the public.
Byrne:
One of the biggest questions, I think, is where the money will come from to spend more? I know that's maybe not your specific problem to solve, but is it something you and Governor Meyer have talked about in terms of sorting out priorities depending on what funding is available within the state budget?
Marten:
You always have to go with the reality of what is available. Let's look at what has been spent. Like I said, there's been lots of efforts and lots of dollars spent on multiple efforts. So, roll all that up and education is 1/3 of the state's budget currently. How are we using that 1/3 in an efficacious way? And how do we make sure that is coherent and aligned and equitable in all of the efforts with the dollars that are already on the table? And then from that, what else is needed? Not just to say we need more, or you don't need more. To need more, you have to be clear on what you need it for and have clarity of mission and purpose.
Byrne:
Wrapping up on funding, is there any concern about federal funding, Title I and such, under the Trump administration, the potential impacts any changes at the federal level could have on all these things that we're talking about?
Marten:
We’ve all heard about that, that there have been notions that there could be changes there, so that's yet to be determined. We're clear in Delaware on potential impacts, but we do not deal in hypotheticals. We deal in concrete realities. And a good leader is always prepared for the expected and the unexpected. And as long as you have clear mission and vision, when things change from what you thought they were going to be, you're still able to stay on course.
